.

puppy ayes club the
seals upon my enveloped posts
past winning

.

Very hard for me to understand. If you could expand on what you mean here, please.

puppy ayes? past winning?

zhaul wrote:

Very hard for me to understand. If you could expand on what you mean here, please. puppy ayes? past winning?

zhaul. - thank you or your questions. seal young are pups. ayes, is olde english for yes. so its about (not night) clubbing baby seals - sealing enveloped - (envelope/s and enveloped) posts (like a 'winning' post)
past (without) 'winning' anything but death and blood posted on the ground.

i know english is not your 1st language, and my writs play a lot on the 'phonetics' of words, and how they sound inferring all kinds of different images in context. so not that easy - id imagine - for you to discern perhaps.

So this is like a protest on the killing of seals?

Thanks for explaining. Still hard for me. But now makes more sense.

zhaul wrote:

So this is like a protest on the killing of seals? Thanks for explaining. Still hard for me. But now makes more sense.

zhaul - superficially yes, but the images combined with the phonics are a metaphor or could be a metaphor for many things.

most of my poetry has no linear or literal sense. its meant, for instance, to make you feel like you've just danced the most incredible tango while actually listening to pavarotti, after drinking a bottle of mescal sitting in the cave with carlos costeneda with blue iguanas keeping time on the walls.

i understand your difficulty. and it is compounded by language. but in fact, if
you leave your understanding at the door, and suspend all known beliefs, that could actually be a benefit in simply enjoying like a silent opera of words.

Exactly!

wylde wrote:

zhaul wrote: So this is like a protest on the killing of seals? Thanks for explaining. Still hard for me. But now makes more sense. zhaul - superficially yes, but the images combined with the phonics are a metaphor or could be a metaphor for many things. most of my poetry has no linear or literal sense. its meant, for instance, to make you feel like you've just danced the most incredible tango while actually listening to pavarotti, after drinking a bottle of mescal sitting in the cave with carlos costeneda with blue iguanas keeping time on the walls. i understand your difficulty. and it is compounded by language. but in fact, if you leave your understanding at the door, and suspend all known beliefs, that could actually be a benefit in simply enjoying like a silent opera of words.

do you understand Spanish well?

zhaul - sorry - none at all im afraid.

if ayes translates into yes, then what is the meaning of "puppy yes"?

do they, seal pups, say yes before clubbing? probably not hey? although perhaps to a red bull?

When read aloud, "ayes" sounds more like "eyes", which is a nice touch. The poem conjures up various images like winning posts, posts as clubs, sealed letters. How they all cohere is more difficult for me to work out.

rory - exactly. and (usually) my stuff is to be said, rather than read. coherence is not an aspect i aspire to, but i recognise how this can be frustrating.

i do value your input. thanks.

wylde wrote:

rory - exactly. and (usually) my stuff is to be said, rather than read. coherence is not an aspect i aspire to, but i recognise how this can be frustrating. i do value your input. thanks.

Can I ask - is there a message you are trying to convey? Or a feeling?

Ozymandias wrote:

Can I ask - is there a message you are trying to convey? Or a feeling?

rory - both. in allways (sic). for me that the object of all the arts. to evoke/provoke a connectivity with the viewer/reader/audience.

the potency of that 'connect' is varied and personal. its importance critical. and often very different for different viewers/readers/audiences.

to quote from an interview i gave:

this is a linear explanation i recently gave regarding the process and intent of a specific writ. i think it assists in explaining my writing process.

the explain:


"“enwrapped within a cocoon, not quite a cacophony, of sound, a squinting mind stumbles along with almost numbing, although continuing, stimuli. a realisation of meaning is birthed/christened (rising out of the baptismal font). through the tangle and strangle of the blur an understanding of value is none the less arrived at.”

another illustrative analogy might be that i use words like jackson pollock used pigments & paint - splashed; dripped; draped – whatever onto a canvas seemingly randomly at times but always orchestrating a cohesive chorused event"....and hopefully evoke a personal connection with the viewer.


i hope that that does not come over as being too obtuse.


i suppose a far simpler explanation would be perhaps to state that perhaps what or how i write is surreal poetry. the value of that is in the i (sic) of the beholder.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

~albert einstein~

I like the Einstein quote. For the rest, I guess you accept that different readers will have different reactions to and interpretations of your poems. I think one has a natural tendency to try to make literal sense (whatever that may be) of a poem, and so there is an inevitable stumbling block with your poetry which the reader must strive to overcome. That also makes it very difficult to come up with a critique of your poetry - how can anyone say whether it is good or bad? how can anyone do anything other than say, For me it conjures up such and such an image?

rory - i hear what you are saying. i can only repeat that a linear understanding of (most - not all) of my writs are not the reason or impetus for the creativity i draw upon to express or put down in words.

again i can only use the somewhat tired metaphor of how you may 'feel' or 'connect' or have any 'emotive reaction' to a piece of abstract art. and perhaps why, or why not.

as far as critiquing goes, i have found many useful suggestions about my writs. what im looking for, mostly, is if what ive written down, to be said silently in ones own head, is effective or fails in ways of evoking an emote or that over used word "feeling" with the reader/viewer. and reasons for achieving this or not. there is much to comment on. imagery; onomatopeia; metaphors; line stucture....


{.for me.}

poetry is art. a human art. an art of human expression. an internal verbal depiction of experience, outwardly manifested in the written form.
in the same way that music is. the emphasis with music is in the ‘hearing' of the art.
but like poetry music is also written but with a different emphasis.
many other comparisons could be made. these are just my personal comparisons used in an effort to articulate what the meaning of poetry ( and therefore my ‘style ) is to me.

i fully accept the validity of the view held by some that poetry is a ‘craft'.
i accept that, but is not what poetry means or is to me.
it is also not a case of it being one thing or another.
here i am not talking about poetry being pigeonholed or labelled into styles or genres. i am talking about the basic value and definition, of poetry. and this i state unequivocally again. *is for me*.

the other fundamental and pivotal aspect underpinning the value of poetry is the cathartic emotional expression of feelings. which leads to self awareness and personal growth.
an intrinsic truth of art. i say again this is its meaning*for me*. this being the case i value the honesty of passion and integrity above all in this written world of poetry. substance above the intellectual nuances of craftsmanship or style. sure. those nuances can improve a piece. but they are not the building blocks defining either the value ; worth or statement of what poetry ‘is'.


it is also about connectivity. with self. and connectivity with others in the paradox of what is shared is multiplied. (fish and loaves?)

most can learn a trade. some can extend this and become craftsman. in the same way a brick layer lays bricks. and an engineer or draughtsman extends this into perhaps building edifices
of note. the architect designs an array of edifices with the possibility that they extend into aspects or the realms of artistic expression.
these are skills and crafts that depending on personal capabilities that can be taught ; learnt and executed.

art ( including poetry ) is in all of us.

yes, in varying degrees and in varying ways. one can study it and encourage its expression. but without the inherent and intrinsic truths that i have spoken about it will go no where. of true value or meaning.

i don't believe one can class ‘learn' to execute poetry in the way one would could be taught or learn what the principals to building buildings are. at best this would result in crafted word smithing.

if i were writing a decade or hundred years ago i would be writing the inside of me outside.
with what ever expressions i had to my avail with reference to articulating values that affected or were important to me. thus post modern or art house as a label or tag might have credence and validity from another's perspective, but it is not my reality or value system.


poetry is a shared vision in experiencing different WAYS OF SEEING.

.for me.



. i truly hope that this has been helpful and again sincerely thank u for your responses to me.

peace power to you.

wylde



undressedup

i live in a world of labels. everywhere.blindly stuck onto every domain of experience. righteously invisibly placed. to explain. everything. so nothing can be. there to provide the reasoning for every faceted perspective. the closer understanding becomes - the further from the point i am removed. time and again fallingback on the instinctive 'gut feel' about becoming in touch with what feels right or wrong - with out questioning the processes that leads to that arrival - has seemed to be a pretty good compass to follow. on almost all issues. and that the most selfless for me - has been the understanding of my own ultimate [insert wr3d] - accountability/responsibility/culpability/onus
of myself to myself and my own experiential perceptions - alone.
the only other weakness that rules my spaces is the awareness of others and consideration of what and how 'i do' and how that is a persistent consideration - of the affects of that has upon them and their spaces.
which i suppose is kind of contradictory. which is one of the reasons the paradox's within the law of opposites holds such a balanced attraction for me. in the extreme

and again. of course this is just my personal experience with my own poetry.
i love many forms and writers and reading all kinds of poetry.

i do kind of get an instinctive violent reflux reaction and nausea to overly 'hallmarky' cliched or badly written - tea towel embroidery poetry.

i certainly do not want to impose my ways on others.

"a violent reflux reaction" - I like that! and I know what you mean, but I'd better say no more.

For me, I am mainly stuck in the linear mode of interpreting poetry, I think, although as you probably noticed I have been trying some more experimental stuff lately, with mixed reactions from people here.

So your poems are for me rather like the paintings of the surrealists, in which one does not expect to find some truth or message but simply some evocation of the unconscious, and I try to approach them accordingly, but since as I say I am stuck in the linear mode I often stumble and all I could really say would be whether a poem of yours evokes certain images or not. For different readers, of course, different images might be evoked, and I don't think it would be right for anybody to say, "yes, this is the right feeling to get from the poem" or "no, this is the wrong feeling". And without being able to say that, it's hard, perhaps impossible, to say whether your technique, choice of words, etc, is effective or otherwise. Things are only effective or not given a certain goal. And you yourself have pointed to the limitations of conceiving poetry as a craft.

So, the upshot is, if I drop my preconceptions a bit and go with the flow, as they say in a world of cliches, I can enjoy the images that I get from most of your work, but as for providing an intelligent critique, then unless something is blindingly obvious I'm gonna find it extremely hard! I'll do my best though. In this one, for example, I do appreciate the interweaving of various concepts as I mentioned above.

rory - i continue to feed; cogitate and ruminate upon your response.

in the interim, thank you for your graciousness of your interaction/s in exploring poetry with me.

again with the tea towels, wylde!

doris wrote:

again with the tea towels, wylde!

indeed lol.


its all a sure sign that you need to travel to visit us in africa!

It could be that I'm not entirely sane. But when I read I'm mostly looking for how the words cause me to feel. Haunted, upset, enlightened, puzzled, disturbed, a mixture. Particularly in poetry that's dreamlike or subconscious in nature. I can't explain it, I can only say that certain combinations of words and sounds (and the images they inspire) mean much more than any literal meaning could. But remember, I'm not sane! I'm sure of that.

et - you have reading - here.ing - me, down pat. and dont worry brother. i too have certifications to prove my insanity. lol

They are playing a game.
They are playing at not playing a game.
If I show them I see they are,
I shall break the rules and they will punish me.
I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game.

~ R. D. Laing, "Knots" (1970)~

I love any excuse to travel and meet fascinating men! A tea towel is as good as any.