alana wrote:

is this a case of I am so I write or what? Lets just say, I had a dragon for a certain subject and she made me seek refuge in poetry. I would choke on my words, if I did not read poems, I would perhaps vegetate if I did not write poems, but wait, i have a question, if we did not have these forums, and we were not really being happy about how many of the poems were published, and there were no poetry clubs then, then how would we feel about writing poems, would we still write them? I think I do not know the answer to that, but I do know , that a rejection letter hurts, and I want to go to the editor and ask, if all the magazines want known names and a certain tonal voice, who will give new poets like me a break? Why do I write, maybe because it burns in the furnaces in my heart and I have a voice, why do I write, because I want to be heard, acquire a readership, why do I write, because I believe I am. And how has poetry changed me, it has fired the furnaces from the spark, it has readied the kite for the flight, and all that is needed is a favorable wind, mentors and the right break, believe me, I am not interested in being published after I am gone, I want it here and now, instant noodles with the magazine that published the poem written by me. I am no saint, i don't want to be one, but I have the ambition, the stupidest of reasons, and I want to be a thundering success at poetry. That is what poetry did to me, excuse me, does that coin me raving mad or what?

Thank you, ambition can be a very good thing.

Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet..that was a title given to them by others or as a result of profession..ex: someone is a poet because that is their profession.. like a doctor, lawyer, carpenter..writer..poet...now whether or not you have to make money doing it I guess it could go up for debate..but at the end of the day I think it does go into another person calling you a poet....

For me..I write..I create...Its what I do and I have been doing since I was 8. If I didn't I wouldn't be speaking to you today..I probably would have blown my brains out a long time ago..its messed up to say but its the truth. I do this because I have to.
In someways I think I am also narcissistic because I have this incessant urge to share my words..as if anyone would truly care to them.

NikeAGoGo wrote:

Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet..that was a title given to them by others or as a result of profession..ex: someone is a poet because that is their profession.. like a doctor, lawyer, carpenter..writer..poet...now whether or not you have to make money doing it I guess it could go up for debate..but at the end of the day I think it does go into another person calling you a poet.... For me..I write..I create...Its what I do and I have been doing since I was 8. If I didn't I wouldn't be speaking to you today..I probably would have blown my brains out a long time ago..its messed up to say but its the truth. I do this because I have to. In someways I think I am also narcissistic because I have this incessant urge to share my words..as if anyone would truly care to them.

Yes, I know where you are getting at. A 'poet' is a term that defines a person's profession, but it is also a talent. Many people have hidden their works in fear of rejection, but if they feel their talent, then yes, I feel they have the right to consider themselves a poet, because they have confidence that doesn't go towards narcissism. Even if they are not truly good with words, (which is opinion anyways), then the preamble stills says 'freedom of speech.' (and by saying 'not good with words', I mean inherently bad, as in, most professionals would not put their work in magazines for a reason other than 'mis-relation.' In my honest opinion, there is a much larger difference between confidence and self-titles than narcissism and an obsession with what everybody thinks about your works. At the end of the day, I feel everybody has a bit of narcissism in them (like from the beginning of bi-polar episodes) after they've been dusted with a lack of true confidence. What I mean by this is the idea of certain people going from one extreme to the next unsure of how to balance these two extremes. One day, I believe I am good with words, and another day, I believe I am not. Calling yourself a 'poet' is a feeling of self-acceptance for your work, which is an automatic attachment to you, no matter how unattached to your works. The reason for this is because the writing you create about the world beyond your knowledge already exemplifies partly what you would feel subconsciously. It is also a genuine realization that you are good with words. There is a difference between calling yourself a 'poet' and 'E.E Cummings.' There is also a difference between somebody asking what you do: 'oh, i like words, i'm a poet/i like poetry' and 'oh, i'm a poet, love me, look at my work' etc.

I think the reality behind this "narcissism" like the urge to show your words is a need to be accepted by other people. Showing your words is a way of showing who you are to the world needing to feel accepted. Those who are strong may not truly care what anybody thinks of them, but their ambition and obsession with 'showing their works' may be caused by protective instincts: the need to associate with other people in order to not be rejected. They are protecting their privacy rights without being private about their works, no matter how contradictory that sounds. It's human to have a little bit of 'narcissism', because it's an inside dire urge to be accepted, which is human, no matter how strong or weak. Writing poetry is a need. It's a cathartic process. Without writing poetry, you are not expressing yourself (unless through other artistic means or telling others things about your past etc). I would have to disagree with the notion of 'blowing out brains', because another talent would replace the poetry one due to genetics, etc, but that's long out of debate.

NikeAGoGo wrote:

Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet..that was a title given to them by others or as a result of profession..ex: someone is a poet because that is their profession.. like a doctor, lawyer, carpenter..writer..poet...now whether or not you have to make money doing it I guess it could go up for debate..but at the end of the day I think it does go into another person calling you a poet.... .

Definition of POET
1: one who writes poetry : a maker of verses
2: one (as a creative artist) of great imaginative and expressive capabilities and special sensitivity to the medium

I play guitar and therefor am a guitarist. Whether a person makes money at what they do is not a determination of what they are as we have amateur musicians, golfers, poets, etc as well as those who are professionals. It is the word that goes before it that determines the whether you do your art, sport, etc for money or for the pleasure of producing it.

Fuchsia. you are a treasure beyond measure.
one of those rare people whom truly enriches ones own experience of life. let alone writing.
thanks.

NikeAGoGo wrote:

Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet...

i simply agree. i cringe at even calling my writs 'poems'. let alone calling myself 'a poet'. that for me is for others to bestow.

i may be able to strum kumbayah on a guitar, but if i called myself a 'guitarist' and slotted myself into the same frames as hendrix and or others, well that'd be a bit rich. no?

as for being a 'professional' or being 'paid' - id also say that some (or all/most) of the most popular verses sold by hallmark are hardly 'poetry' or written by 'poets' but they may make buckets of money commercially...


i do accept the way i/we/ie you? feel - is not universal.

but it is rewarding to hear someone express what i so strongly feel.

thankx for that.

wylde wrote:

Fuchsia. you are a treasure beyond measure. one of those rare people whom truly enriches ones own experience of life. let alone writing. thanks.

Thanks, so are you. I appreciate that. Aww

wylde wrote:

NikeAGoGo wrote: Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet... i simply agree. i cringe at even calling my writs 'poems'. let alone calling myself 'a poet'. that for me is for others to bestow. i may be able to strum kumbayah on a guitar, but if i called myself a 'guitarist' and slotted myself into the same frames as hendrix and or others, well that'd be a bit rich. no? as for being a 'professional' or being 'paid' - id also say that some (or all/most) of the most popular verses sold by hallmark are hardly 'poetry' or written by 'poets' but they may make buckets of money commercially...

I don't know about that...A person can call themselves a 'poet' going by the definition of the word itself, but their levels of narcissism/humbleness are displayed by the idea of there being the word 'bad,' 'good,' great' before the title 'poet'. Many popular verses are not very 'good', but they still constitute as poetry due to what the tag generally states. technics/basics, I guess. Maybe somebody can steer me in a different direction, but this is always what I thought? Same with being a guitar player: you are really good, but there is still the possibility of you calling yourself a 'guitarist' with the word 'good' before it, therefore, cancelling out the notion that you are a Hendrix incarnate. I must say, that I also cringe at the idea of calling some of my poems 'poems.' I just think that some verses a person may or may not write (no matter how heartfelt they are) are better than others. So I don't see the problem with calling yourself a 'poet' if you've written something that was good. What if somebody were to do a consensus of who said what when and where about your poetry: good bad things: but more bad things, and you ended up becoming the next e.e cummings? This was the case with the misunderstood disliked 'past poets'.That's why I think it's up to the confidence level (genuine or narcissistic) to decide. In other words, I don't think a self-proclaimed title is a trait of narcissism. Not always. Sometimes, it's a self of genuine confidence, which my counselors always told me was a good thing.

wylde wrote:

i do accept the way i/we/ie you? feel - is not universal.

fair enough.


i would say that one could say 'i play the guitar" rather than "i am a guitarist".


but you are not wrong in what you are saying in the least. having different opinions does not make one correct and the other incorrect..heh

its more than just semantics for me. but the emphasis is "for me".

and i quite accept other opine differently...

wylde wrote:

wylde wrote: i do accept the way i/we/ie you? feel - is not universal. fair enough. i would say that one could say 'i play the guitar" rather than "i am a guitarist". but you are not wrong in what you are saying in the least. having different opinions does not make one correct and the other incorrect..heh its more than just semantics for me. but the emphasis is "for me". and i quite accept other opine differently...

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say this whole time. I'm glad you catch my drift. I don't think it's just 'semantics' tor me, because you wrapped up what I was really trying to say. I don't know if this makes sense...

I don't know if I would ever call myself a poet, nor accept the title from someone else. I write words that I like the sound of. If I didn't write "words that I like the sound of" I would not be so different than I am now. I'd still seek out new sights and sounds to fill me up. I'd still enjoy my glass of wine with friends. I'd still read. etc. Writing is not now nor has it ever been a impulse that I must meet. If I don't write I am still the same Doris.

And I suppose that I am not invested enough in "poetry web villages" to say that they meet some need in me. I have community... like minded friends, writer's groups, book clubs, etc. I prefer the company of moving faces, audible laughter, tears that leave stains on my shoulders. It isn't writing that grants me these things.

That being said, I see the value in online communities like this. Many people do not have like-minded friends, some are too shy to put themselves out there for the public to judge face to face, etc. The value for me comes in being introduced to voices that I would otherwise never hear. Thank you all for that. In addition it has put the bug in my ear to travel to places that I have yet to see. That for me is the biggest treat.

Writing or not writing, I am what I am.

NikeAGoGo wrote:

Okay maybe I am crazy..but I never thought a person can call themselves a poet..that was a title given to them by others or as a result of profession..ex: someone is a poet because that is their profession.. like a doctor, lawyer, carpenter..writer..poet...now whether or not you have to make money doing it I guess it could go up for debate..but at the end of the day I think it does go into another person calling you a poet.... For me..I write..I create...Its what I do and I have been doing since I was 8. If I didn't I wouldn't be speaking to you today..I probably would have blown my brains out a long time ago..its messed up to say but its the truth. I do this because I have to. In someways I think I am also narcissistic because I have this incessant urge to share my words..as if anyone would truly care to them.

This is the opinion i tend to agree with. It is the most humble place to work from. Nick Flynn told me he didn't consider himself a poet until he got a paycheck for reading his work. I feel the same way. It was not until i got a paycheck with my name on it for reading a 15 min set of poems did it make sense that someone else would actually pay to hear me read my work. Even now, i rarely use that title for myself. it something someone else might call me.

There are a lot of published "poets" that are pompous assholes that want nothing more than to hide behind that title (Franz Wright, great poet and a pompous asshole in real life). Yet there are many writers that hide behind their fear and humility to write great poems and never do anything about it because of fear. I think it is a process of growth. At some point you have to find the confidence in your work to strike out. When that is, depends on the person.

I'm unsure why the word narcissism came into the picture.

Someone -- and I don't know who, though I'd like to -- once came up with a "hierarchy of engagement" for creative people that I think describes the dynamic well. Simply put, it's based on how deeply your interactions go with the chosen medium.

There's "has the tools." As in, "I have a guitar." Or, "I have a blank book and pen."

Next, there's "does the activity." As in, "I play the guitar." Or, "I write poems."

Finally, there is "Identity." As in, "I'm a guitarist." Or, "I'm a poet."

I have some hand drums.
I play the guitar (though I'm beginning to shift toward the third level on that one, I think).
I am a poet.

Nothing judgmental here; it's strictly about how deeply you identify with the Work.

I've been writing poetry now for 43 years. Have seen myself as a poet for about 39 of those years. Started getting paid for it about 33 years ago. I get paid for playing guitar sometimes too, but it's still hard to see myself as a "guitarist." But even if I'd NEVER gotten paid as a poet, I'd still be one.

Yes, Tony, I think you are right. Or at least that is how I see it. I also don't see anything vain in that.

When asked what my father "did", he always answered "I'm a traveler." to which my mother would respond, "I am a follower." Both were doing the exact things but each saw it differently.

doris wrote:

I'm unsure why the word narcissism came into the picture.

I thought that it was relevant to the situation, because the term would fit one who says "I'm a poet" in a narcissistic fashion. Does this make sense?

Also, many people who are narcissistic use their talent labels as a self-compliment instead of what it is. An identity. What is better and more sacred than keeping an identity for yourself? If it wasn't for identity, I wouldn't bother.

Almost anyone (I can't make a blanket statement and say "everyone") can be a competent writer. It's a long process of grammar and sentence structure and dotting your t's and crossing your i's, but it is certainly possible to turn just about anyone into a competent writer with enough time and practice. However, being a great storyteller through words is a true gift - a gift only a handful of people in society truly have. Even with being a good storyteller - having the gift - you can hone in on your craft and come to be one of the few truly great storytellers of the world through time and experience (above all) and continued striving to be all you are through sharing your work. An analogy could be made the brave men and women in the armed forces who protect the wonderful rights we have as Americans in this nation. With enough drilling and practice almost anyone can become a competent soldier. However, only a few truly gifted individuals can stand out and be in the special forces - and only a few will ever be Medal of Honor recipients.

I consider myself to be a storyteller who dabbles in prosaic poetry as a means to share my stories with others. I'll never seek a penny for my work and would be insulted at the insinuation I should seek monetary reward for my work. And if someone offered me money for my work I'd flat out refuse them (as I have before). Having the honor and blessing of having a place such as GP to share my work is enough - having the ability to share my storytelling creations with others is enough reward within itself and always will be.

A quote I've heard attributed to Wm. Faulkner has always been with me and sums up my thoughts on the matter: "A writer writes because a writer cannot not write." I honestly can't speculate as to who I'd be if I wasn't a poet. First of all, I don't classify myself as a poet and under traditional terminology I'm certainly not. I'm a storyteller who uses prosaic poetry as a means to that end. This is part of who I am so to speculate as to who I'd be if not a storyteller is basically asking who I would be if I was born in a different era to different parents. I would be someone else entirely.

j.p.

JPerry1980 wrote:

Almost anyone (I can't make a blanket statement and say "everyone") can be a competent writer. It's a long process of grammar and sentence structure and dotting your t's and crossing your i's, but it is certainly possible to turn just about anyone into a competent writer with enough time and practice. However, being a great storyteller through words is a true gift - a gift only a handful of people in society truly have. Even with being a good storyteller - having the gift - you can hone in on your craft and come to be one of the few truly great storytellers of the world through time and experience (above all) and continued striving to be all you are through sharing your work. An analogy could be made the brave men and women in the armed forces who protect the wonderful rights we have as Americans in this nation. With enough drilling and practice almost anyone can become a competent soldier. However, only a few truly gifted individuals can stand out and be in the special forces - and only a few will ever be Medal of Honor recipients. I consider myself to be a storyteller who dabbles in prosaic poetry as a means to share my stories with others. I'll never seek a penny for my work and would be insulted at the insinuation I should seek monetary reward for my work. And if someone offered me money for my work I'd flat out refuse them (as I have before). Having the honor and blessing of having a place such as GP to share my work is enough - having the ability to share my storytelling creations with others is enough reward within itself and always will be. A quote I've heard attributed to Wm. Faulkner has always been with me and sums up my thoughts on the matter: "A writer writes because a writer cannot not write." I honestly can't speculate as to who I'd be if I wasn't a poet. First of all, I don't classify myself as a poet and under traditional terminology I'm certainly not. I'm a storyteller who uses prosaic poetry as a means to that end. This is part of who I am so to speculate as to who I'd be if not a storyteller is basically asking who I would be if I was born in a different era to different parents. I would be someone else entirely. j.p.

Thanks for the response. I'd say that anybody who understands themselves well enough to classify their works under any particular bracket is intelligent enough to create analogies such as the soldier one. It is my firm belief that mostly anybody can become a competent writer, but it is true that only a few have the 'gift' of storytelling. One is storytelling and the other is understanding grammatical structure which comes with time. While it is true that mostly anybody can write a poem, only a few may have the 'true gift' attached to it--the rest is just labels.

I would consider it taboo to consider yourself 'one of the truly gifted' no matter how gifted one is (you and general, as you know), but still think one can call themselves a 'poet' because such is a phrase and a coined identity. However, I appreciate the fact that it is more than just semantics to you and would gladly take into account that 'even though one is a poet' they can still use another title without using a 'title' if that makes sense. In other words, one can use an indirect title instead of going by traditional terminology, while still realizing they fall under the literature bracket. Even if a person isn't technically a 'poet' due to what the definition states, they are still part of prose or at least storytelling that takes on another form.

Yeah, and I get the last part. A person is a poet, prose scribbler, etc, because it is in their genes to write. The only way one would truly be able to measure out what they would be or hear or see without being a poet is if there was a way to remain the same 'code' by altering the poetry segment of it. (and not changing the code--which would be impossible).

...more thinking.....id be just what i am. a self-taught industrial chemist/business owner - truth seeker of self insight for external contextualisability....i spoze.