though i was going to discuss this with depth in an article, i want to touch on it in this forum, because i think it's very relevant.

why do you workshop? do you do it because it's another method of exposure? or do you do it because you want to develop a critical understanding of poetry and be able to apply it? sadly, i think very few posters in any GP forum have the latter desire, and most of those who do don't post anymore. yeah, this is a call out.

the most common workshopping sin is to think of your poem as "good enough." good enough for whom? you, the writer?

another poster and member in the chicago community pointed out that many of the posters on the forum are extremely resistant to substantial crit, and browsing through many posts, it becomes apparent that this attitude is pervasive.

what's with all this hee-hawing? MAYBE one person in this community is good enough to good enough to consistently get into major journals (ie ones reviewed by Best American Poetry), yet i haven't seen one substantial rewrite among any poem in this forum for weeks. i'm not talking about changing two words and calling it rewrite. that's a joke. i'm talking about a complete and thorough overhaul of a poem from root to flower.

to anyone here who thinks they have a complete understanding of even their own style: get over yourself. not even nobel prize winners can boast such a claim, so don't you dare.

if you're saying stuff like "Oh, so and so poster liked the poem," as a defense to critique, you're not helping yourself at all, especially if said poster ... well ... sucks. you should never defend your poem with opinion, but facts about your own poetics. there's a difference between rigorous debate and shouting at brick walls.

i'm not saying to blindly listen to crit -- the majority of posters are worse critics then writers themselves. but you have to be able to deeply analyze the merits and flaws of suggestions before applying or denying them. in the rewrite workshop, a few people posted really good comments and the author just said "i disagree" and moved on. not only is that such a waste of time for the critic, it makes it more unlikely that anyone will read your work in the future.

please understand that writing is a long, difficult, and endless path. some of you act like you've already reached the pinnacle of human ability, though it's clear from a single poem that you just started. to that, i say push yourself harder. think about WHY you workshop and HOW you can make marked improvements. don't just post crap and then get angry when people don't like it.

to respond to your first question, why do i workshop?

well for me it is a way of practice. i work on a piece until i can't work anymore than i post it here. often nothing that is said to me makes me take another step, but it does make me think about how to craft the next poem differently. i have to admit i don't think that any of my pieces are great, perfected pieces. in fact, i don't know if they ever will be and for me that doesn't really matter. as a writer i am in a process of growth. reading how others see my pieces gives me clues to where i need to go next. commenting on others' pieces keeps my eyes working.

i try to get to know the posters and their habits in writing and how they react to critique. i try to give that poster an honest assessment to what they are able to receive from me. when a poster is unable to receive my comments then i leave them alone. my ego certainly is not such that requires anyone to listen to me. i don't in anyway find myself anything but a peer in this process.

alvin, you are different than i am. you have shown to be someone that gets enraged when things do not go the way that you want them to go, when people do not like your wisdom or the way that you disseminate it to the masses. i think that you could be a valuable asset here, whether that be under the screen name AlvinLau or some other. i watch people react to you because of your tone not necessarily about your content. i think that you need to think about that when critiquing anyone. i don't mean that you can't be tough and honest, but you might want to check your haughtiness at the door for most of the posters on this site.

we all here come with different skill sets. to me that is the joy of such a large community. i rely on my ear mainly, what words sound wrong, the rhythms that trip up a person, etc. i also come with an abundance of experience with the written word. that can help in my reading of others' works. but that is about all that i do. some writers find that helpful.

you, alvin, have other skills that could be helpful to the masses. perhaps you could learn to give critique without demanding that the writer reshape the piece the way you would have them do. it is actually quite easy. give your opinion and then wait for the writer to say "no thanks" or "give me more". if they don't want more of your opinion move on.

i think that you make some interesting points in your post. we might all want to rethink how we approach the workshopping forums. i personally am unsure about this particular forum and how it will work. i wonder why it needs to be separate from the rewrite workshop, but it is. lots of things that i am still waiting to see how they get played out, but critiquing something that hasn't been able to get off the ground seems weak to me. i am actually sorry if this seems too harsh a critique of your post, but you put it out there.

oh, and my personal opinion is that this post is appropriate for another forums, like the coffee house, or what ever it is called.

i'll first like to say, you misunderstand me completely: I never get frustrated when people disagree with my opinion about art or specific critique. disagreeing over stylistic focuses is exciting.

what does set me off is the attitude people take towards critique in general. many posters are here to soak up praise, and not earnestly seek improvement.

yes, i'm harsh and arrogant, but still, poets here cannot differentiate between a criticism of their specific poem (or overall poetics) without taking a personal blow; i'm saying "This line is wack" and they're hearing "Yo momma!"

[in a live workshop setting, this is one of the first rules cemented in the minds of the poets, but somehow it never applies online.]

another clarification: this isn't about boot camp individually, but the attitude of the posters here. i'm not attacking something "that hasn't been able to get off the ground," i'm talking about a constant attitude that's existed since before i joined. calling it "weak" because of a misrepresented subject is, well, "weak."

and no need to apologize at all. this is fun!

mayo wrote:

oh, and my personal opinion is that this post is appropriate for another forums, like the coffee house, or what ever it is called.

why? your post asking for definition of the forum is an on-or-off topic as your previous one. it's a discussion about the nature of the forum.

also, i think it's funny how i posted about "improvement," and your response was almost entirely an ad hominem attack. not a "critique of my post" at all!

AlvinLau wrote:

i'll first like to say, you misunderstand me completely: I never get frustrated when people disagree with my opinion about art or specific critique. disagreeing over stylistic focuses is exciting. what does set me off is the attitude people take towards critique in general. many posters are here to soak up praise, and not earnestly seek improvement. yes, i'm harsh and arrogant, but still, poets here cannot differentiate between a criticism of their specific poem (or overall poetics) without taking a personal blow; i'm saying "This line is wack" and they're hearing "Yo momma!" [in a live workshop setting, this is one of the first rules cemented in the minds of the poets, but somehow it never applies online.] another clarification: this isn't about boot camp individually, but the attitude of the posters here. i'm not attacking something "that hasn't been able to get off the ground," i'm talking about a constant attitude that's existed since before i joined. calling it "weak" because of a misrepresented subject is, well, "weak." and no need to apologize at all. this is fun!

I agree...I would not consider myself a writer of Alvin's level by any means, but when I take time to post thoughtful crit, it is pretty frustrating to have someone come back and argue with me.

I won't post links to specific examples, but when I post a comment, there is a big difference between a response of "oh, I chose that wording because I was going for this effect" and "oh, I like that wording even if you don't". Alvin's post, as I read it, is encouraging the former instead of the latter.

I posted a poem that I thought was near-complete. People came back and told me they had no idea what it was about. Instead of arguing about how they don't get it or they need to read it more closely, I took their crit and worked to make it better. That's what should happen in a workshop.

For me having the background of fine art since childhood ( legally since college graduation ) I can see my works as progress. What was awesome last year or week can look like crap on a new view. You could wallpaper a small building with the poems, and watercolor paper paintings I have shredded as they were not up to the standards I wanted them to be.
I am all in favor of responsible critique. By that I mean, trying to look at the work objectively. Using the following statement pisses me off " oh, that's interesting. " Interesting is a neutral word that really doesn't show an opinion for or against the said piece. You do not have to have a PHD, or any other degree to critique. I just put up a piece that I thought was good it was torn apart, and it forced me to rewrite the whole thing for the better ( see Thylacine Dream...in submit a poem workshop ).
When I started writing again in 2004 after decades of pursuing other interests ( painting, drawing, and sculpture )it was good for that time. Now when we move ahead to 2006 I noticed my writing is improving. I just recently went through what I thought was " good/great " writes from '06 and had to reevaluate and rewrite a lot of them to make them more coherent and cohesive. I am far from " schooled " in poetry, most of my learning is ongoing I have a tendency to favor Lyricism, but I have tried other forms of poetry to help me learn and strengthen my skills.
As far as opinions as a defense. Like holding onto a trash can lid in a hailstorm don't do it. What I like is not what you like and vice versa. Unfortunately, the reason why we have POP culture is the willingness of some to follow like sheep on someone else's taste ( fashion/music/poetry ).
All I ask, is that whomever is willing to tear apart my works show me the reasons and offer suggestions to tighten it or let it unwind. For those that might take exception to my critiquing, ask yourself this " why did I put this in here ? " If you sincerely want to improve develop tougher skin.

alvin, i think tough, thorough critique is valuable. that is why i think that you are valuable. and as a side, amyD, i think that your critiques are also clear and concise, very valuable. and while we are at it jh89, you have shown yourself to not only be willing to put yourself out there with responding to others but you also take what is given to you and work it into your pieces.

i think that tony started this forum so that in depth critique could really happen for those that desire it. it has only been up a short amount of time, and we have yet to see how it will flesh out. only a couple of poems have even been posted in it. blankface, whomever that might be, criticized it after being on the site only 2 days. i find that interesting.

anywho...i still think that this post is better suited in another forum, but tony is the man in charge of such things.

mayo wrote:

i think that tony started this forum so that in depth critique could really happen for those that desire it.

again, i am not critiquing the forum itself. i am commenting that these people are not plentiful enough in our community.

THIS is exactly why I started this forum. Thank you, Alvin, for saying it, and thanks to those who have responded for expanding on it and exploring it.

I do think it needs to be heard elsewhere, but I think I'm going to leave it here and post a link to it from the Coffee Shop.

I wanted to say a couple of things about its origin and my intent.

I don't post much to the forums anymore. That's because I don't get what I need there. I do get it, mostly backchannel, over on my LJ. When I post something here, it's usually because I've got two different version of the same poem and I want to test them in two different places, get two different perspectives, etc. I rarely even do that anymore.

I have to keep reminding myself that there are a couple of different types of poet on this site -- those who write for voice alone (to say something that's personally significant to them and have done with it -- get it out of their systems, so to speak) and those who are interested in the best possible delivery of their message to readers and listeners by doing the hard work of craft. I know that the second group is vastly smaller than the first, that there are people in the first group who think they're already in the second group but aren't, and that there are some in the former group who are interested in and are capable of joining the latter. This forum is for the crafters, or those who want to be crafters without knowing yet what it actually entails. It is not for everyone.

I started a fresh forum to do this type of work (rather than trying to reshape something like the Rewrite Workshop) so we could have a fresh playing field with a clear philosophy up front. I also wanted some level of control over this, hence the moving poems, deleting comments, etc.

The Boot Camp has been in operation -- establishing standards and proces, critiquing poems and working on them -- for LESS THAN TWO WEEKS now. As I've said repeatedly, I'm delberately being a little lenient up front as we begin in order to develop it, and also to help attract some of those on the fence folks to it. That is going to change, and it already has begun -- a couple of poems have been moved, and some comments that I thought were unhelpful to the poet have been removed. As time goes on (and I mean this in terms of days, not months) there will be more of that, and I'll be pushing the envelope more on what gets in here.

There's one more thing. I want to talk about me and my own presence here and elsewhere on the site. It may help explain some of the slow start I know some are feeling chafed about.

As a site admin, I feel like I've got a tightrope to walk here. If folks are feeling beaten up by critiques from the site admin, they tend to feel like the site itself isn't friendly (and I've got the PMs to prove it). As the moderator, I have to do just that -- be a moderator, help set the tone and police the forum (not just this one either). So a lot of what I do is behind the scenes, managing the process as well as the assuaging of pain and dealing with hurt egos when someone's poem about their dead mother gets critiqued. In order to do that effectively, I have to stay a certain distance above the fray.

Honestly, it's not easy. I don't think people realize how hard it is to read so much bad poetry when all you want is to read good poetry, to help good poetry come about and be seen and heard. The number of times I just stare at a poem and then walk away because to really say what I think could be destructive to the site as a whole is staggering.

I also know that some folks just don't care about critique. I don't know why they bother posting here -- ego, exposure, misunderstanding, they like the social atmosphere, whatever. After a while, I don't bother. It's not for me to judge them and their work.

I do what I do here because GP is a site for all the poets who post here, and I think it's good that it's here. It's not just for the "elite," for want of a better word. But there are "elite" poets here, and they need something like this forum. I don't entirely know how it's going to work, but I know we need to try to make it happen if the site's not going to degenerate into a strictly hobbyist platform. I don't know how to say it otherwise. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.

Onward. We'll never settle this. We'll always debate this. That's good.

I love a tough critique and have to say that Alvin's advice has been influential in helping me to improve. Albeit harsh most of the time, I take what I can out of it and the rest...well, I just numb with a Vodka and Soda.

The other night I looked back at some of my old writings from when I first signed up on GP, (I was looking for something that I could use as an assignment to lighten my homework load...no luck) and I was amazed at how much more precise my work has become since joining. I attribute that to taking criticism. Yeah, I got a long way to go before my insecurities disappear but what the hell...this place is awesome.

3ringcrashpad wrote:

The other night I looked back at some of my old writings from when I first signed up on GP, (I was looking for something that I could use as an assignment to lighten my homework load...no luck) and I was amazed at how much more precise my work has become since joining. I attribute that to taking criticism.

i am the same. if one would like to look at the first pieces that i posted here you will see what i mean.

like i said this place is like a "practice" for me. the more that i practice the more that i see growth.

Being an " ink stained barbarian " not a formally trained ( school ) poet I am always learning. I have taken to the stage and read my poems some stuck some didn't but I tried. As far as insecurities go ? I must hide them well or ignore them. I at times will random up a poem to critique, there are some that it's hard because I see the eggshell of an ego behind or what appears to be that. I like this workshop, it will only make you a stronger writer. Just come into it with the belief that whatever you submit could be better. Won't be perfect, ever but for what one needs to improve themselves as an artist/poet it will do.

Nicely said, jh.

When I post something in the workshop, it's to see what people think. More often than not, I am looking for direction. I've gone as far as I can with something and want to see if anyone can help me go farther.

One time that this worked great for me was when I posted Gallows Humor and Mayo drew a link between the laughing box I used and the people trapped in the nightclub. I was so shaken by the correlation it took me a while to process it and determine if I could use it and feel like I wasn't being exploitive.

Other times, I am looking for people to show me what is lacking and what works. I don't always agree, but I try to at least look at the piece with the changes suggested. But ultimately, I have to figure out if a change works. Hopefully the person critiquing doesn't react with a "But you didn't use any of *MY* comments!" They were considered, but didn't make it to the next revision.

What I do wonder is if people really give the critiques they get a chance. Re-write and see how it looks. Or even repost with the rewrite to see if they understand what the critic is suggesting. That's something I'd like to work on more. I ended up doing this when Huberjack commented on the profanity I used in Paparazzi. At first, my reaction was "what's wrong with swearing?" But I tried cleaning it up and it works much better.

-Jesster

AlvinLau wrote:

yes, i'm harsh and arrogant, but still, poets here cannot differentiate between a criticism of their specific poem (or overall poetics) without taking a personal blow; i'm saying "This line is wack" and they're hearing "Yo momma!"

See, the thing is, Alvin, your style of critique is not "this line is wack" but rather more akin to "all your poetry sucks".

One is commenting on the poem itself, the other is attacking the poet. See the difference?

When you attack the poet and not just critique the poem, people stop listening and get defensive.



Speaking of which:

AlvinLau wrote:

you misunderstand me completely

If you want more people to listen to you, and you have really great advice so I'd like to see that happen, please for the love of god start speaking in "I" statements. Like, "I wasn't being clear."

So when I post about workshops, you post about me, and I'M the one making personal attacks? Hilarious.

Enough. I'm making this a sticky later, and I want the personal stuff to be at a minimum.

I mean that for everyone. EVERYONE.

There are known personality differences here, and past history. It ends here. We're in service to the poems and the forum.

I'll let these stand because I caught them late. In the future, they won't stay and ANYONE indulging in it will likely get bounced.

We clear?